[0:00] Moving abroad is easy to romanticize, but much harder to actually do. For this couple, life abroad wasn't a single bold
[0:07] move. It was a question that they keep asking themselves again and again. Everywhere we travel to, even now, we
[0:13] say we we came up with this thing. Could I expat that? So, like, could I live in this city? And for the most part, we're
[0:20] still on the same page of whether we would want to live in the same city and not across five countries, different
[0:26] cultures, and now growing a family. That question became the foundation of one of the biggest experts platforms online.
[0:33] Experts everywhere. In this episode, we talk about how living abroad before creating content shaped their
[0:39] philosophy. Why there is no perfect country, only the right one for your life phase, and also why one country,
[0:46] Portugal in particular, has captured the attention of so many Americans in the recent years.
[0:51] I think people just didn't realize, you would always romanticize about Europe and moving to Europe, but you would say,
[0:57] "I could never do that. I, you know, I couldn't find a job. I couldn't find a visa." But it's actually not as hard as
[1:02] you think. Portugal has been one of the easiest ways and a beautiful country to live in. The the overall cost of living,
[1:07] the healthcare, the safety, all of the great things about Portugal that you would want to actually live here. But then you do have an opportunity to live
[1:13] here because of the visa. Today on Almost Local, the living abroad story of Kaye from Experts Everywhere.
[1:20] Let's start.
[1:29] So I grew up in the US uh in Florida. I was actually born in Arizona but moved to Florida when I was 5 and I was there
[1:35] from 5 to 18. I went out of state for university. So I say Florida is where I grew up and then I ended up meeting my
[1:41] now husband when I was in university and we decided after I graduated to move abroad. We were still dating. Eventually
[1:47] we got married. So actually I've been living abroad since 2009 going back and forth a few times a few stints in the US
[1:53] just when like doing visas or something like that or uh we got stuck a little bit during co and transition to uh come
[2:00] to Portugal where we currently live now. So I've always loved traveling. My dad was a major league baseball scout. He's
[2:07] retired now but we just traveled a lot as a family domestically and internationally. And so I think travel's
[2:12] always been something that I've loved and it's something that I continue to do and I continue to love and now I just do
[2:17] it from Portugal. So it's there is a little bit of background of family tradition of
[2:23] traveling at least. Yes. Yes. My whole family loves to travel as well. So you said you moved just after your
[2:29] studies. What was the first motivation like? Was the idea to travel alone or were you really planning to say we will
[2:36] move abroad uh in a more definitive way? Yeah, I actually want to do a study abroad when I was in university. I was
[2:41] thinking maybe like my sophomore or junior year. I also played soccer in university, so I had to do it the second semester, but I didn't want to do it by
[2:48] myself. That was one thing. I like to travel, but I find it more interesting if you're doing it with someone. Like if you're looking at something or going
[2:53] somewhere, I like to talk about it rather than just uh exploring on my own. So, I started asking friends, who wants
[2:58] to do a study abroad second semester, and it never worked up with like lined up with anyone else's schedule. So, I
[3:04] never ended up doing it. But then my senior year at the beginning when I was finishing my soccer career, I met my now
[3:10] husband and he was actually thinking about leaving around January time in the middle of my senior year. And I said,
[3:15] "Just wait for me to graduate and I'll go with you." And we didn't really know each other that well, but we both just had this passion to go somewhere to
[3:21] travel. And so he took a leap of faith and he waited until I graduated. And so I graduated in May. And then that summer
[3:27] we left. And the first place we moved to was Spain, which we kind of got there in a bit of a roundabout way. Since we were
[3:33] just dating and didn't know each other super well, we were both just looking for different jobs around Europe. And I
[3:38] actually found a job in Switzerland where I was going to be in Opair. So I was going to live with the family that I worked for. And he was going to do like
[3:44] a study abroad, like get his, you know, like teaching English as a second language and everything. And he was
[3:50] going to do that in Greece, but he was going to do that with a friend. And so we thought, oh, we'll at least bolt me in Europe and then we'll figure it out,
[3:56] which I probably wouldn't have worked out. But then what happened was is his friend ended up bailing on him. So he
[4:02] started looking at Barcelona. He actually wanted to be in Spain, but she wanted to be in Greece. So So he was like, "Okay, I'll do that." And so he
[4:08] started looking at this same program in Barcelona. And in the meantime, the family that I had the job with, she lost
[4:14] her job and just decided she was going to stay home with the kids. So then I had to go back to the drawing board. So I thought, well, if he's going to be in
[4:19] Barcelona, I'll look around in Spain as well. I found a job in Madrid and the family that I was working for, they're
[4:26] like, "Oh, Barcelona is too far away. What if I find a similar program for him to do in Madrid?" And so the lady that I
[4:31] actually worked for found the program that he did. And long story short, we both ended up in Madrid. Okay. So you actually literally avoided
[4:38] the places where I lived, which is I'm originally from Barcelona and I lived in Athens for three years and a half. So
[4:43] it's it's good. Yeah, it's funny. Did you always imagine living abroad? It
[4:49] was a dream of yours. It's nearly like 10 years now, 20 years now, like 200.
[4:55] Like, wow, it's a lot of time. Do you think it Do you thought at the beginning it would last that long?
[5:00] Well, I think I went into it, and when he and I talked about this as well, we had a bit of like a five-year plan because everyone said, "Oh, do it while
[5:06] you're young, get it out of your system, and then come home and get a quote unquote real job, right?" So, we're
[5:11] like, "Okay, we'll do a five-year plan, and we'll see how it goes." So, we were in Spain for two years, and then we said, "Let's go explore Asia." And we
[5:18] went out to Asia. We were in South Korea and Saudi Arabia and Singapore. And along the way, the five-year plan, we
[5:24] was like, uh, we kind of threw that out the window. Said, you know what? Let's just continue to do this. Let's figure out how we can do this. What jobs can we
[5:30] get? How can we level up? Cuz he started with teaching English as a second language. And I I always thought
[5:36] teaching was awful. I never wanted to be a teacher, but I loved kids. So, that's why I started as an Opair, but it wasn't
[5:41] really sustainable, especially after we got married, because a lot of times you want to live with the family you work for. So it's like I could nanny but it's
[5:48] just not the same especially not the same financially and for visas it's a little harder. So then I went into teaching as well and we just continue to
[5:55] we get our credentials get our teaching licenses teach. So we taught at universities and international schools
[6:00] along the way and so a few years into it I would say we say you know what this is fun like there's so much out there to
[6:06] explore there's lots of different cultures lots of different countries so forget that fiveyear plan forget the
[6:12] whole going back to the US and getting a a real job. let's just keep doing this and see where it goes. And along the way
[6:19] in 2015 actually is where Expats Everywhere was created because a lot of people would write us or you know he
[6:26] would have like one of our parents would say oh I have a colleague who has a daughter who wants to do what you're doing. Can you help? And so we were like
[6:32] sure because you know technology at that point it was a little harder. It wasn't as easy to get information. So we found
[6:39] well we have the information because we've been doing this and that's how Experts Everywhere came about was wanting to help people who were
[6:45] interested in doing the same thing and just didn't know where to start. So that business was born along with us teaching
[6:51] in different countries and moving around and yeah we just said yeah there's you know we like the US there's nothing
[6:56] against the US and we have family and friends there so we go back and visit but we don't have any plans on moving
[7:01] back. Yeah makes sense. I mean I have a lot of questions right now like you dropped like three countries like nothing like
[7:07] South Korea, Southern Saudi Arabia and Singapore but maybe I will go a little bit backwards because something that you
[7:14] said was really interesting that you took a like a a faith like travel the
[7:20] first one to Spain was like you were dating but you were not knowing each other that much. Did the relationship
[7:26] improve due to the fact of living abroad? Do you think like it it was the connection that made you become husband
[7:32] and and marry and and and transform that to a to a family life at the end? Yeah. I actually think that it's a great
[7:38] way to see if you guys will last. Like if your partner if it'll work is travel together, move abroad together, and you
[7:46] know, it kind of is a dictator on whether it'll make it or break it. And we've seen actually it go both ways. But
[7:52] for us, like I said, we had we actually just started dating and we didn't even live in the same city in the US. We went
[7:58] to different universities. We just knew each other through soccer. So, we had never lived in the same city. We started off our relationship doing this long
[8:04] distance thing. So, that's why when we decided to move to Europe and initially we were going to be in different countries. It was kind of like, well,
[8:10] whatever. We we're not near each other anyway. But then it obviously worked out that we both ended up in Madrid, which
[8:15] was nice. So, I lived with the family that I worked for and he had roommates. So we we were I was a little outside of
[8:21] Madrid, outside of the city, like in more of a suburb, better for like family life with the family that I worked for.
[8:28] And so I would go in and I would visit him. So that was actually the first time we had lived in the same city together.
[8:33] But then we traveled a lot together. And traveling with someone, you really get to know them on a more intimate type uh
[8:40] relationship, you know, because it it can be stressful. And especially when we first were traveling, smartphones didn't
[8:46] exist. So, you couldn't just pull up the GPS and figure out when you get into a city where's the hotel or hostel that I
[8:52] booked. We had to like print out directions, you know, and that's how we would try to get places. And so, it it
[8:59] was like always it became a joke like we would generally get into a new city and we would fight because we'd be like, "It's this way, it's that way. We're
[9:06] going the wrong way." So, we would say, "Okay, when we were arriving into the new city, we would be like, "I'm sorry.
[9:11] We'll probably get mad at each other, but once we find the hotel, we'll be fine." And then after that, it was good. So just kind of having that
[9:16] understanding I think was was really helpful. And so for us it worked. We both hold the same passion of liking to
[9:22] travel, of wanting to live abroad because that's another thing too. If if one wants to live abroad and one doesn't, then it makes it really hard
[9:28] and it can strain the relationship. But we both are on the same page. And what's really nice is everywhere we travel to
[9:34] even now we say we we came up with this thing. Could I expat that? So like could I live in this city? And for the most
[9:41] part, we're still on the same page of whether we would want to live in the same city and not. So, as our lives have
[9:47] changed a little bit with the family and everything, we're still on the same page, which is really, really important. So, for our relationship, it's been
[9:54] really good. Sounds incredible. Like, I mean, I have the same situation. I've been living abroad with my partner for quite some
[10:00] time now, and it definitely strengthens the I mean, there is difficult moments. I I agree. And but it also strengths the
[10:06] relationship in a very deeper way. And when you you need to ch pass challenges
[10:12] together in that in that way. I'm I'm curious because probably you are one of
[10:17] the experts that I interviewed that has been abroad for the longest and and you
[10:22] said 2009 like life was absolutely different. And you said technology was
[10:28] like also like routine wise I suppose for you too was a very very different life back then and now family marriage
[10:35] and business of your own also I suppose it influences a lot the way how you how you live but how has your not the
[10:43] countries itself but the the journey in between these countries changed during these nearly 20 years what it's what
[10:49] it's the most different part for you well technology has definitely helped like I was saying before without any
[10:55] smartphones I can remember actually Spain was a little bit behind with the smartphone technology. So one time we
[11:00] went back to visit the US and people were talking about smartphones and we're like what is that? What is that? Because we always just had the phone where we'd
[11:07] give each other like missed calls when we were at locations cuz we didn't want to pay our credit. So you know you would do those little things. So technology
[11:14] keeping in touch with family and friends being a bit more mobile doing research has helped a lot. So that's been a big
[11:20] difference that's helped along the way. I would say another thing too, when we were younger, we chose different cities that we wanted to live in and visit. We
[11:27] really enjoyed capital cities, big cities with big buzz, a lot going on. Obviously, we stayed up a lot later. We
[11:34] did a lot more of that type of lifestyle now as we've gotten older in a different stage of life. And not that we're like
[11:40] really old, but we are in a different stage of life because we have a six-year-old daughter. So, it's not like we're going out, you know, dancing as
[11:46] much, you know, get a babysitter, okay, but not as much as we used to. So we find now something that's changed in us
[11:53] is we prefer more of like the second city feel. So something that has the amenities, we definitely love cities. We
[11:58] don't want to be in a smaller location. We love cities, but we don't want to be so big and sprawling. We actually prefer
[12:04] more of like the second city feel. So the amenities, the lifestyle, but not as much of like the the grandness that a
[12:11] capital city holds. Cool. Maybe one last question before I dig a little bit more into Portugal and
[12:17] experts everywhere. And how did you build the the the channel and the business behind them? And Slen Key also
[12:23] why South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, this tour of like Asia suddenly from Spain going there. You
[12:30] didn't have really restraints back then or was because one of you had job
[12:35] opportunities on there and then that dragged the other in mutual agreement let's say like this. But why these
[12:41] countries? Why why choosing this one? Yeah. So we had been obviously Spain for two years. We had both traveled a bit of
[12:46] Europe and we were we had interest in Asia. Neither of us had actually been to Asia. So, we had a little bit of interest there, but then a little bit of
[12:52] it was job opportunities just because at the time, especially South Korea, it was a lot easier to get into teaching
[12:59] English as a second language without any sort of experience. It's a little harder now, but at that time, mainly if you had
[13:05] a passport from a native English-speaking country, then you could get a job there. So, we were kind of
[13:11] starting to build our CVs and we found that a couple of the Asian countries were good to go to. So, in doing
[13:17] research and figuring out could we get jobs, where would we want to live? South Korea was one of the places. So, we were
[13:22] in South Korea for a couple years. Again, continuing to level up. While we were there, we did an online program where we were able to get our state
[13:29] teaching licenses from the state of Florida. So, that was going to be even better for job opportunities. And in
[13:34] Korea, we had talked about, you know, since we threw that five-year plan out the window, we're like, what's next? where should we go? And again, we didn't
[13:40] have any constraints. It was just like we could go anywhere as long as we could find jobs because we need to obviously be financially stable. And at that time,
[13:48] my husband Josh was very interested in the Middle East. It was a little bit during the time where you'd see a lot of
[13:53] stuff on new on the news and it would be like you should be scared of the Middle East and there's all these bad things happening. And so, of course, he's like,
[13:59] you know what? Let's go there and let's figure it out for ourselves. Like, let's instead of people telling us how it
[14:04] should be, let's experience it ourselves. I said, okay, I'll do that. That's fine. I'll go anywhere but Saudi
[14:10] Arabia. And of course, famous last words because we ended up in Saudi Arabia. And we actually had Yeah, of course. We
[14:16] actually had jobs in the UAE, but it was a new school and it was throwing up a
[14:22] lot of red flags with it just not being very organized. I'm a very organized person. So, the fact that it was like
[14:28] you're supposed to be assisting us with getting our visas and you can't give us the actual like just a list of documentation that we need to submit it.
[14:34] So, it's something as simple as that, which we, you know, had already started talking about we could help people do
[14:39] this. So, I already knew like these are the things if you're going to sponsor a visa that you need and they weren't doing that. We were, it was before we
[14:46] signed the contract and we're like, I don't know if it's disorganized now, what's it going to be like to be teachers there. So, we started looking
[14:52] at jobs again and really good jobs became available in Saudi Arabia. So, I was like, "Okay, fine. We'll go there."
[14:57] And we had a really good experience. We only stayed there for a year teaching in a university, but we had a really good experience. So it allowed us to travel
[15:03] the region to save a lot of money tax-free which was really great and experience in a university. And actually
[15:11] in Saudi Arabia it's changed a lot since we lived there. It's a lot more open. You can actually go there for tourism now. You couldn't do that when we lived
[15:17] there. But the joke is you have to have some sort of hobby while you're there or else you go a bit stir crazy while
[15:22] you're working. So we this is where we decided to have expats everywhere become
[15:28] a company because we're like you know what again like we're with a lot of people who are doing the same thing as us the people have been doing it for
[15:34] years as well so we can gain a lot of information from them start YouTube videos about it and just start this
[15:39] consulting business. So the hobby kind of started in Saudi while we were there and then soon after we launched it
[15:46] before going to Singapore. So then then when the reason we went to Singapore is because we had visited while we were
[15:52] working in Saudi and just like the moment we entered the country, we were like, "Wo, this is beautiful. This is definitely our next place that we want
[15:58] to live." It was actually the only place that we had moved to up until that point that we went to beforehand and saw cuz
[16:04] we had never been to Korea or Saudi or Spain either actually. So it was like we
[16:09] went to Singapore. I know we we saw it, we were like this is beautiful, let's move there. So that's how we ended up in
[16:15] Singapore. And then in Singapore, we were there for four years. We were teaching. Expats everywhere started to do really well. We thought, could we
[16:21] make this our full-time jobs, which now it is in Portugal. Yes, if we can, but
[16:26] not in Singapore just because of the cost of living and the visa situation. So, we started saying, you know what, we've been in Asia for a while. Let's
[16:32] get back to the European lifestyle. And we had visited Macau, which has a a
[16:37] heavy Portuguese influence because it was colonized by the Portuguese a long time ago. And if you look at the architecture, you can see some of
[16:44] Portugal in the architecture. And when we were living in Spain, we had visited Portugal and loved it. So we said, you
[16:49] know what? Let's look into Portugal and see if we can move there. And as far as cost of living and the visa
[16:54] opportunities, it was like, yes, we could do that. So that's how we ended up back in Europe in Portugal.
[17:00] Nice. So it was also this probably this moment that the the visa processes in Portugal were relatively very easy for
[17:07] for Americans. Uh I remember there is like this moment in in the last years that everyone was like oh Portugal it's
[17:13] the the way to enter Europe. Yes. Yeah. So I think that Portugal actually even before we moved to
[17:19] Portugal and we were considering it telling people a lot of people didn't even know that Portugal was part of Europe. You'd be like oh we're moving to
[17:25] Portugal and they'd be like where is that? You know is that South America? We're like no. So I think the for the
[17:30] longest time Americans didn't realize that there were visa opportunities to actually move to Europe and Portugal
[17:37] even still is a great great option. They you know even since we moved they've opened up a couple different visas. So
[17:43] there's different options that you have. So I think people just didn't realize you would always romanticize about
[17:48] Europe and moving to Europe but you would say I could never do that. I you know I couldn't find a job. I couldn't find a visa. But it's actually not as
[17:54] hard as you think. And Portugal has been one of the easiest ways and a beautiful country to live in. The the overall cost
[18:00] of living, the healthcare, the safety, all of the great things about Portugal that you would want to actually live here, but then you do have an
[18:06] opportunity to live here because of the visa. So, I think that in the past few years that's just become very popular
[18:11] with Americans because now they have the knowledge that it actually exists and they can move here. Nice. Portugal exists. It's a it's a
[18:17] great sentence. Portugal exists. It sure does. Maybe the
[18:22] last question before we jump to enter into Portugal a little bit more into into knowing your experience and and how
[18:29] is life there right now. Is this the last move? It it is planned to stay in Portugal. Uh I mean you also focused a
[18:36] little bit in the channel a little lately more into doing content about Portugal itself and less globally.
[18:42] Although you I know that you have experts everywhere explores which is like the second branch of it. Are you planning to stay forever in Portugal?
[18:49] Oh gosh, forever. Oh, that's a hard one. Uh, well, as you've seen, obviously, we move around a lot. So, uh, you know, we
[18:55] would always joke with people that Josh and I have commitment issues, not with each other, but with the country that we live in. So, almost like, when is it
[19:02] going to be too long? So, we will probably not be in Portugal forever. But that being said, we won't move around as
[19:08] much either, cuz now since we have a daughter, we want her to have stability in a school. So, we like Porto and we
[19:13] like Portugal and we have no plans in moving right now. But one big thing that I always have in the back of my mind is
[19:19] schooling options for my daughter. And right now she goes to a private Portuguese school, which is good because it's good for her Portuguese. But I do
[19:25] think that a little later on she will need to switch to education in English. And I don't love many of the
[19:32] international or the bilingual schools that are available in Porto. There are some that are better in Lisbon, but for us, if we're going to leave Porto, we
[19:39] would probably not move to Lisbon. We would move somewhere else in Europe. So it's kind of that's more of the
[19:44] reasoning. Not so much that we don't like Porto or we're tired of Portugal in general. It would be because of our
[19:50] family unit needing something at that specific moment in time. Nice. How much it changed no life? Like
[19:56] the first move was out of the blue dating and thinking about moving with two different country, two different
[20:02] cities and giving a little bit of distance and everything. Now it's taking decisions because of of the unity of the
[20:08] family. That's Yeah. That's how life changed. Uhhuh.
[20:13] Wonderful. Cool. I would say we jump to the to the fast replies questions. We already entered into Portugal a little
[20:19] bit. Uh specifically about Portugal, but Porto of course I will I always ask the
[20:25] same 12 questions to every guest uh to know a little bit how is their expert life abroad and then you need to reply
[20:32] them between 40 and 60 seconds each question. The first one that I have, it's a cultural adjustment thing that
[20:38] took you a while to adapt in Portugal after so many years living abroad, right? I get asked this a lot and it's
[20:45] kind of funny because since we've been to, you know, places like Korea and Saudi Arabia, Portugal is easy because
[20:50] at least it's part of Europe, but there are obviously different cultural things to adapt to. One of the biggest things I
[20:56] think for me were the grocery stores and just the overall shopping experience. And I think it's like this when you move
[21:01] to a lot of places. You have to figure out how the grocery stores are laid out. They're laid out differently. Where is
[21:07] something I even still like at stores that I shop, I always think, "Oh, where is that jar of jelly? I can't remember
[21:13] where they put it." And it always seems to be in the weirdest spot and you're like, "Oh, okay. That's where it is." So, I think, you know, it's kind of a
[21:18] silly one, but sometimes when you first move to a place, it could be stressful and overwhelm you when you just go into
[21:24] the grocery store and you're like, "I can't find anything that I know I should be able to find." So culturally, uh,
[21:29] just the the grocery stores here in in Portugal sometimes take a little bit of time to figure out where things are
[21:34] because it might not make sense as to why they're there, but for some reason it makes sense to them.
[21:40] Yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, here in the north of Italy, it's very difficult to find coriander. I don't get
[21:46] it, but like everywhere in the world, it's but yeah, whatever. Mhm. Second one that I have, it's social
[21:52] life. How do you usually meet new friends while you are We have met new friends through soccer
[21:57] just because again I used to play, my husband used to play and we love to watch. So it's something that we share a
[22:02] passion for. So this is where we've actually met a lot of our local Portuguese friends. We support a team
[22:08] that's based out of London called Arsenal, but we're part of the Arsenal Portugal supporters group. They are the
[22:14] official supporters group for Portugal for the team of Arsenal. And most in there are Portuguese. There are a few
[22:20] other expats in there, but we do meetups. We we watch the games together, like watch parties, we grab meals
[22:26] together. So, that's been a great way for us to meet people. And we've met we even like we go to FC Portro Games as
[22:32] well. We have season tickets and we have friends that we sit with that are it's a mix of Portuguese and expats. So, for
[22:38] us, sports has been a really big way to meet people just by going and watching live sports or going and watching on TV.
[22:44] But I think that the best way to meet people is through some shared hobby because then it's a great way to meet
[22:50] locals and expats, but you already have something in common that you're going to enjoy rather than trying to force it. So
[22:57] meeting someone like if you like hiking or surfing or whatever that looks like, I think that's a really great way to
[23:02] meet people is through a hobby. Absolutely agree. It's the way that I always meet people.
[23:07] Fun enough to to Why are you gunners? Like how did you became fans of Arsenal
[23:13] coming from I know it seems a little weird, but so my husband was first and a
[23:18] long time ago at that time in the US they were only showing a few teams on TV and Arsenal was one of them. He played
[23:25] defense. It was one nil to the Arsenal. They had a really strong defense. He really liked the way they played. So that's he started off liking Arsenal and
[23:32] then I like I said I played but I didn't watch as much but when he and I started dating we started watching together and
[23:38] of course he liked Arsenal so I was watching Arsenal. He really got me into it because I'm very competitive and he's
[23:44] like, "You should create a fantasy football team." And so that's how I started like learning about the different players and the teams because
[23:50] I wanted to win. He he had me join a group with his friends. So I was like, I'm going to win this group. And so
[23:57] that's how I started also getting to know the teams a little better and then just liking Arsenal as well because of
[24:02] the players. Yeah. Okay. Going back to the to the questions like the third one that I have, it's language. Live in Portugal. Do you need
[24:09] to speak Portuguese? Yes or yes. How are you doing with with learning Portuguese? Also, the good thing is that the Portuguese
[24:15] have a really high English language proficiency. They learn in school. A while ago, it used to be French. So, the
[24:21] older population generally, if they speak a second language, it's probably French and maybe a little bit of English just because of their exposure through
[24:27] TV and movies and media. But the younger population, generations, they actually
[24:32] speak really good English. So, that's really helpful. And generally, anyone in the service industry has some sort of level of English. So in the big cities,
[24:39] Lisbon, Porto, Braga, it's pretty easy to get by with not knowing any Portuguese. That being said, they do
[24:46] always appreciate if you're trying. So learning at least a little bit before you come is good. And then while you're
[24:52] here, starting to take lessons. And there's all different types of lessons and platforms that you could take that that work for your lifestyle, your
[24:58] learning style, whether you want it to be conversational or written, reading, whatever that might be. So, the good
[25:04] thing is is you can definitely get by, especially in the bigger cities. If you go to a smaller, more remote place, it
[25:09] might be a little harder, but generally the Portuguese are very kind. So, they'll work with you if if you know if
[25:15] you don't speak Portuguese and they don't speak English. But then also for us, we have along the way since we've been here for over 5 years now, we've
[25:21] taken different classes, we've done different online platforms, conversational, and then since we could
[25:26] apply for our citizenship in the fall of last year, we had to have an A1 A2 certificate, language certificate to
[25:32] apply. So, we took a course that uh allowed us to get that certificate. We're still learning. What I think is
[25:38] really great is my daughter's teacher does not speak English. She's younger, but she actually is half French, so she
[25:44] speaks French and Portuguese. I mean, she obviously has a little bit of base for English. Uh, but it's a great place
[25:50] for me to comfortably practice because I know she doesn't look at me like I'm an idiot. So, it's like a safe space to
[25:55] practice my Portuguese. But overall, you know, that's the other thing too is getting out since people speak English
[26:01] like and they see that you aren't a native Portuguese speaker, they automatically will switch over to
[26:06] English just to be like make it more comfortable for you. So you have to say, "No, you know, I live here. I would like
[26:11] to practice and speak Portuguese." And in the north in Porto, they're very kind in doing that and they'll switch over and they'll they'll take their time with
[26:18] you, which is good. So you just have to be intentional about wanting to practice. That's the big thing because
[26:24] you can get by without it. Cool. Next one. It's cost of living on average and in general.
[26:31] Yes. So, it depends obviously on where you live. You know, Lisbon and Porto being the bigger cities will have a
[26:36] higher cost of living for most things. Housing is the really big one right now. That's a bit of the the X factor just
[26:42] because housing there's a bit of a supply demand issue that's going on. So, it's been driving prices up in the
[26:48] housing industry. So, depending on what you're looking for for housing will, you know, depend on your overall monthly
[26:54] budget. But for a family of three, we comfortably live on 3500. And that is including school fees because my our
[27:01] daughter goes to a private Portuguese school, which is super affordable, but just an added cost, you know, since we have a daughter. And then, you know,
[27:07] three mouths to feed, her extracurriculars, and so on. And then lifestyle as well depends on how often
[27:13] you're getting your hair cut, if you get your nails done, massages. All of those things are very, very affordable. And I like to do those things, but they do add
[27:20] up. So that's the other thing. You might say, "Oh, it's cheap or it's affordable." like you know keeping in mind like if you're doing those things
[27:26] on a regular basis then they do add up. So for a family of three 3500 maybe to
[27:31] 4,000 obviously because of travel. Uh but if you're a couple or single you could definitely do it lower. It will
[27:37] just depend on what your housing is and what that is and then going from there you know how often you're eating out and
[27:42] stuff. Again very affordable but going to be more expensive than if you're getting groceries more regularly. Makes sense. you touch upon the next
[27:49] one, but uh finding a an apartment, a home, like how do you find apartments right now? I know that in Portugal it's
[27:55] getting difficult, but uh what's the process? What's the normal process to try to find a home? It is really difficult. There are a
[28:02] couple online platforms like Italy and Kazapo are some of the big ones, but those tend to they won't have everything
[28:09] for sure, and they tend to be higher prices. Portugal still does a lot of word of mouth. Uh, so knowing people. So
[28:14] there's a lot of properties that aren't even listed on there because you have to know a realtor or you just have to know.
[28:19] The Portuguese have a lot of real estate. Actually, the way that it works is it's passed down from generation to
[28:24] generation. So there's a lot in stock depending on how old it is and how renovated is, you know, that varies, but
[28:31] there's like there is the stock there, but they don't put it out on platform. So knowing people is really important.
[28:37] having either like a renters or a buyer's agent, different realtor. So, that's always really tricky because, and
[28:42] I'm sure we'll talk about this at some point, but a couple of the main visas, you have to have accommodation as part of the visa process. So, it's like I get
[28:49] asked this a lot, how do I get that and make sure that I'm getting what I actually think I'm getting without being
[28:54] scammed or having issues or having mold on the walls or something like that if I'm not actually there, but I have to
[29:00] have it before I apply. So, knowing people that are actually in Portugal is
[29:05] really helpful. word of mouth, whether that's even that's friends or connections, resources, like trustworthy
[29:11] resources because if you go on Facebook, there's loads of realtors. Oh, I'll help you. I'll help you. But you just have to be careful there because you just Yeah.
[29:18] You don't want it to be a scam. So trustworthy people that have been vetted is very important. But once you have
[29:23] those resources, it's really great. It's a lot easier to find and to be able to negotiate price and terms and
[29:30] everything. Nice. The next one that I have, it's living like a local. I know it's a term that is a little bit difficult, but what
[29:36] do you do to blend in in Portugal? I think uh one of the funniest things which people people probably don't think
[29:41] about is a lot of Portuguese wear pants all the time. The females in the summer sometimes, you know, will be in shorts
[29:49] or maybe skirts, but a lot of the guys actually wear pants. So, it's really funny like walking around, especially if it's at all like cool weather, if you
[29:56] see someone in shorts, you're like, "Oh, that must be a British person or they're definitely not Portuguese." because the Portuguese even in the north like it
[30:02] won't it will be like warm outside or maybe a little cool and they're in these big like puffy jackets and you're just
[30:08] like whoa like you can never look outside and try to figure out what the weather's like because the Portuguese are always bundled up pants and and
[30:13] jackets and everything. So if you want to stick in then you're probably wearing pants more of a jacket you're not
[30:19] wearing like a baseball hat that's a lot more like you know looks like a tourist or someone who's not Portuguese. Uh, and
[30:25] then also I think especially in Porto down by the river, if you're eating at one of those locations down by the
[30:31] river, it the Portuguese don't do that because generally the food is more expensive and it's not as good. It
[30:37] caters more for the view and the tourism. So in those locations, you won't find so much that the Portuguese
[30:43] are eating there. They're more trying to sell things or something like that. You find more of like the local mom and pop
[30:49] places that still exist that are smaller that don't take reservations. You just walk in, but you have to be there right
[30:54] when they open or else they're they're full. So that's kind of how to blend in and live like a local. Not not doing
[31:00] much by the river, I would say, in Porto. And boy, the river.
[31:06] Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And you know, when people come visit, we go down there to show them, but like we
[31:11] don't just go out for a meal down there. The next one it's a little bit tricky because I know I mean you have your own
[31:16] business and you work online but work life maybe from people that you know how is the working situation in in Porto or
[31:22] in Portugal right now. So the work situation a lot of people actually do have uh online businesses or work remote
[31:28] a lot of the expats at least locals it's in the normal you know 9 to5 they take a little bit of break it's not like the
[31:34] Spanish where they have this long siesta in the middle of the day I get asked that a lot as well but you know they'll have a little bit of a break you know
[31:39] they like their coffee breaks and their smoke breaks and everything but overall it depends on you know what industry
[31:45] you're in there's a lot more workspaces that are becoming available for those who are working online just because the
[31:50] world we live in now it's a little more available to do that. But I would say overall they do have a very good work
[31:56] life balance, which I like. They work hard. They're hard workers, but they also know when it's time to like close
[32:02] the computer and be done and have a good time, go to the festival, go out to dinner. So, I do appreciate their work
[32:07] life balance. It's not like a rat race like where it just seems like you're working, working, working. So, that is
[32:12] really good here. The unfortunate thing is the minimum wage and the overall salaries are quite low. So that is a bit
[32:19] of a bummer if you, you know, if you're working here on one of those wages, like you don't have much spending power. So
[32:25] while it is affordable here to live, it's a little harder if you want to move somewhere else. And actually that that
[32:31] happens a lot. A lot of the Portuguese, especially the young Portuguese, they leave and they go other places in Europe because you can make more money.
[32:37] Sounds familiar.
[32:42] The next one I have is getting around. How does the public transport work? Do you need a car uh to live in Portugal?
[32:49] Mhm. Yeah, it really depends on where you live if you need a car or not in Lisbon or Porto. You definitely don't.
[32:54] They have public transportation. They have metros and buses. And then a lot of the other cities have buses as well, but
[32:59] it's just the two right now in Lisbon and Porto. If you want to have a little bit of land, a little bit of space, then yeah, you'll definitely need a car. But
[33:06] if you live in Lisbon or Porto, you can definitely live without a car. Even if you're living a little further out, as
[33:11] long as you're kind of closer to a metro station or a bus uh bus stop, then it's fine. We do have friends who came here
[33:17] thinking, "Oh, I don't want a car." But then they didn't like having to be on someone else's timetable. They wanted to
[33:22] have the flexibility to go out to one of the national parks whenever they wanted. So, they ended up getting a car. But, we
[33:28] have a lot of friends who don't have cars. We don't have a car. We don't want a car. I would not want to drive around
[33:33] Porto with all the one-way streets and the the traffic and the tourists and the e scooters now. And and the Portuguese
[33:40] are a little bit of crazy drivers as well. I will say that. So I when we want to go somewhere that's a little harder
[33:46] to get to by like we can't go by bus or train or obviously flying then we just rent a car. And so that's very easy to
[33:53] just rent a car for the weekend or for a week or whatever that might look like. But you could definitely do without a
[33:58] car. It just kind of depends on on if you want to or not. But um yeah, I would say the other thing too is a lot of
[34:04] Americans will come here and be like, I'm tired of the car. I don't want the car culture. And so a lot of Americans
[34:10] don't have cars, but a lot of Portuguese do. Practically, I think like every Portuguese person I know has a car. So
[34:16] it is actually a car culture. Portuguese do have cars. So they do find it weird when Americans move here and they're like, I don't want a car. But I think we
[34:22] just kind of want a break from it. And we're like, we don't have as many opportunities outside of like the really big cities in the US to to not have a
[34:29] car. Like you have to have a car. So when you move here and you think, I don't have to have a car. I can I have a break from that. that I don't have to
[34:35] worry about maintenance or gas or insurance or the stress. Like you're just like, "Oh, that's so much easier.
[34:41] I'd rather take public transportation." But the Portuguese, most well, all the Portuguese have cars.
[34:46] Makes a lot of sense. Next one. Hopefully you didn't touch it much, but uh healthcare. How is the the system
[34:52] working? Is it easy to access? It's good quality. Yes, the healthcare here is actually
[34:58] really good quality. They have a mix of public and private, and I've used both, and I actually recommend that people use
[35:03] both. The thing with the public is it's taxf funded. So that's great as far as like financially like how much you're
[35:09] paying and everything, but because everyone uses it and has access to it, it's just really overworked. So
[35:15] sometimes if you're if you have a non-emergency situation and you need to have like maybe a scheduled surgery or
[35:20] something or just to get in to see that surgeon can take months and months and months just because it's not an emergency and there's just no time in
[35:27] the in the public sector. So this is where a lot of people top up. they get private insurance or you don't even need
[35:32] private insurance to go to the private clinics and hospitals. You would just pay out of pocket and out of pocket isn't even that bad. But a lot of people
[35:39] will use both. So if you have something that's a non-emergency situation, then it is nice to have a GP or a specialist
[35:46] in the private sector. But as far as the quality of care, both are very very good. Cool. You touch it a little bit and this
[35:52] is always the question that I'm afraid of asking. But bureaucracy, how is paperwork, visas, permits, uh how does
[36:00] the system work? Oh, it's a nightmare right now. Uh so yeah, the paperwork. Yeah, it it is
[36:07] tricky. There are issues right now with people trying to get visas, with visa renewal. It's just again overwork.
[36:12] There's been such high demand for the past couple years that there's this massive backlog and they just need more workers. And they keep saying, "We're
[36:18] hiring more people. we're trying to get through the backlog. Uh, which they are. They I have seen um different areas that
[36:24] have been implemented that have actually been working. One of them, for example, is an online portal for those who need
[36:29] to renew their temporary residency cards. That's actually working. So, we're seeing glimmers of hope, but it is
[36:36] still sometimes you think it feels a little antiquated with how you have to do the paperwork, how they don't have
[36:41] online ways that you could submit things. So, there is some of that that are issues. That being said, once you're
[36:48] a citizen, they have so many more apps and online platforms that streamline
[36:53] things that you have access to, but you have to be a citizen because you have to have a special citizen like citizenship
[36:59] number to access those. So, even us with a temporary residency or a permanent residency, we have a different number
[37:04] and those numbers cannot access those platforms for some reason. And I think this is where they really need to
[37:10] improve that because once they Yeah, it's kind of weird, right? cuz you're a resident here so you should be able to access those things. So I
[37:17] think they will move towards that in the future. They just don't have the manpower to actually implement and get it going. They're so behind in other
[37:24] things that they're working on that those types of of backlogs. So once they can implement if you're a citizen and a
[37:29] resident that you can use some of these more automated services that are online, it'll be really really good. But they're
[37:34] not there yet. So for citizens, it's great. For those of us who are just residents or trying to apply for the
[37:40] initial visa, it is hard. it is hard to get the initial appointment that you might need like for the D7 or D8 and
[37:47] then just getting the secondary one that you need once you're in the country and your biometrics and then will your card
[37:52] arrive. I mean there's the bureaucracy here can be can be rough but there are services and again this is one of the
[37:58] reasons that I started Slate Key and I can talk about that later is to assist with this because since I've been here
[38:04] and I know how it works I have a good team around me that knows how to do stuff then it's it's easier and a little
[38:12] more stress-free because you have someone mainly doing it for you or telling you go do this get this done and
[38:17] then I'll take it and then I'll go do what needs to be done because when you're not here and you're applying from abroad or Even if you are here and you
[38:23] don't know how it works or you don't know the language, sometimes you hit this wall or you hit this loop like this closed circle where it's like they need
[38:30] this number but you don't have that number but you can't get that number until you you like you can't access the
[38:36] platform without that number. So I mean there's there's some crazy things going on but I'm seeing it getting a little
[38:42] better. Yeah.
[38:47] slowly. Let's say like this. That's a South European style of doing things.
[38:54] Yes. I have two more. The first one, it's the best and the worst. Like the best thing of living in Portugal, the worst thing
[39:01] about living in the best thing for me, I would say, is the cafe culture. I really like that you just sit outside, you have a coffee or a
[39:08] wine, you chat with friends, you watch people. Just people are so friendly. The
[39:13] older people love to chat as well. If you have a dog, they're going to talk to you. If you have a child, they're going to talk to you or you just see them
[39:18] communicating with each other. So, I do really like that you have that cafe culture where you can just relax and
[39:24] hang out with friends and then watching people going into the different places that you know, you still have the butcher and the fruit shop and the
[39:31] bottle shop. And so, while they do have big grocery stores that have everything, you still have those specific shops as well. So, just watching people going in
[39:37] and out of those and and exploring that yourself as well is is really nice. So, I think my favorite thing is the cafe
[39:44] culture and just kind of that balance that I talked about before with the work life balance. I think the worst thing right now really is just the bureaucracy
[39:51] and the paperwork. Like, if it works for you, it's okay. But if you get stuck where you like hit a wall or someone in
[39:58] like with paperwork has to think outside the box for the situation, it can be really really hard and it could take a
[40:04] lot of time to either unravel whatever problem that was c caused or just try to get past it. If you get stuck in that,
[40:12] that is stressful. Makes sense. Last one. The top tip uh that you would give someone who is
[40:17] planning I know you have a lot of them probably, but what is the oneline advice?
[40:23] Yes. The biggest tip I give people is come to Portugal with no expectations.
[40:28] Because if you think it's going to be a certain way, you romanticize it in your head and it's not that way, then it's
[40:33] going to upset you. And that's going to change how you feel about the whole move about how you feel with the country, the
[40:39] people, everything. So if you come in knowing it's going to be different than your home country and you just come in with zero expectations, you go with the
[40:46] flow, you take things as they come, then you'll be much happier and things will not stress you out as much because it's
[40:52] going to be different here. Makes a lot of sense. Like lower a little bit a bit like the expectations
[40:58] to then surprise the nice parts. I would like to jump to the to the mini game and I will pass through couple of them. I
[41:05] had more but uh looking at the time I will I will just jump over some. I call this mini game would you post this? I
[41:11] would take the advantage of having another content creator with me and I would like to run a couple of video
[41:17] titles or scenarios and then you can respond if you would really post that or not and why you would not or or or you
[41:25] would. The first scenario that I have it's bringing the percentage of economic
[41:31] uh difference. Portugal is 50% cheaper than US for example. I don't know. I think when you say that
[41:37] when you talk about how Portugal is cheaper, it really upsets people. That's why I try to say more affordable because
[41:42] the the word cheaper just like yeah is is tough for people. So would I post that? Yeah, I would. But I would also
[41:49] package it that don't come here just because of that. And then also, like I mentioned before, you while stuff is
[41:55] more affordable, if you're not used to getting massages in your home country and then now you're getting a massage
[42:00] every couple of weeks, well, that's going to add up and you're going to be like, "Whoa, I didn't put that in the budget and now I'm spending way more
[42:06] money than I thought I would." Which tends to happen. So, you might look at something and be like, "Oh, it's more affordable. Maybe it's 50% cheaper here,
[42:12] so I'm going to go ahead and get it." But then you're getting it way more often and it ends up being more than what you used to spend on that item or
[42:18] that that lifestyle thing. So yes, I would talk about that. It's a it's an
[42:23] easy one to talk about because it is true that Portugal is cheaper or more cost effective here, but I would also
[42:30] focus on the positives of that and not make it seem like come to Portugal just because it's cheap.
[42:36] Yeah, sounds good. Uh second one that I have is like using your own experience in in a generic tip. Let's say like move
[42:44] abroad with no job, no plan. It works for us. Yeah, I think that's a really good one because people do want to see
[42:49] someone's personal experience. So, while you can easily talk about the information side of things or how other people have done it, if you can give
[42:56] your personal experience to it, then I think it resonates a lot more with people and especially if they watch you
[43:01] a lot on different platforms or listen to your podcast, then they feel like maybe they know you a bit more, they
[43:07] trust you. So, they think if that person did it, then I could do it. So, I think that's a really good one. Nice. Third one that I have, it's using
[43:13] knowing the target, not the audience that you're having. Like something like if you're an American, Portugal is the
[43:19] easiest country to move in Europe. Yes, I think that's also a good one to do. Actually, funny enough, working on a
[43:25] video right now about the easiest countries to move in Europe. So, I think that that is good again cuz like what I
[43:30] mentioned at the beginning is that a lot of people didn't actually realize that you could move to Portugal or Europe
[43:35] because of the great visa options. So, I would say that even if you can get past the bureaucracy, right now people are
[43:40] saying, "Oh, it's too hard because of the paperwork and everything and while there is some backlog there, Portugal is
[43:46] still a very easy place to move to because of the visa requirements." So, I think that would be a good one to talk
[43:52] about. Nice. The last one that I have, it's using the negative uh part of it of your
[43:57] own experience and posting something like we are out, we are leaving Portugal. Yeah. Oh, people love that stuff. People
[44:04] love the negative. So, even if it's not true, like, oh, we're out, we're leave, you know, we're leaving Portugal and then they watch the video and it's, "Oh,
[44:10] we're just going on vacation." We wouldn't do that because we, you know, we try to keep the uh the positive side
[44:15] of things and and um of course, like we we're honest, though. So, if there are negative things, then then we do talk
[44:20] about those as well. But I think if we ever do leave Portugal, then we will
[44:25] probably put a video out about how we're leaving and the reasons we're leaving. But like I mentioned before, it wouldn't so much be it's because, oh, we hate
[44:32] Portugal or it's so bad because we love Portugal. it would just be an honest take on why we as a family need to leave. But yeah, that video title for
[44:39] anyone would do amazing because people always want to know what's wrong with it or if they don't like it Portugal for
[44:45] example or they had a bad experience and they've got that bias and they want to see well you left just like me why are
[44:51] you leaving? So yeah, that title stuff like that always does well. Yeah, it's also having a contraite though because
[44:57] the people expect something for the video and then they get something. Absolutely. If you're lying, if you're doing that's it's also not the the best
[45:05] approach. No, I suppose like sometimes Yeah, I don't think that's like clickbait, right? We Yeah, I don't think
[45:10] you should ever do that. Like it should be it should be obviously an honest take. So, you don't want to have it be clickbait for anyone. But people do like
[45:17] the negative stuff, so they tend to click on that more. But yeah, just an honest take. So like for example, if we
[45:22] did something like that, it would be an honest take on why we'd be leaving. And obviously we wouldn't do it unless we were actually leaving.
[45:28] Makes sense. Kelly, you thank you so much for for accepting talking a little bit and bit improvising on this one more
[45:35] and the mini game. I would let you couple of minutes the floor to talk about your projects. I mean we talk a
[45:41] about experts everywhere as a channel. Hopefully a majority of the people who are listening probably already know that
[45:47] channel. So maybe your your newest project is Slate and Key. The combination of those what what is
[45:52] happening right now on your plate. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for letting me share a little bit. So obviously we've been doing expats everywhere for quite a
[45:58] while which has been helping people relocate. And then we really focus a lot on Portugal and Spain for the past 5
[46:04] years. But over the past 5 years I found that a lot of people what we would do is we would give information and resources
[46:09] for people that we trusted and we would say here are the options. Go for it. People started coming back to me saying
[46:15] I need a little more help. I need more handholding. I would actually look I'm looking for someone to do it for me. I
[46:20] don't have the time. I don't have the bandwidth. Whatever it might be. So wanting something that's a little more
[46:25] concierge white glove service. And they felt like they could trust me because they've been watching my stuff for a
[46:30] while. They know that I've got good resources. Maybe they've used some of the resources already. So this is why I
[46:35] create Slate and Key. So it's the a clean slate and we're the key. And so mainly what it is, it's a full-on
[46:40] relocation service where I'm your immigration assistant. So you always have access to me. So instead of being
[46:46] passed around, like if you go to a big company, you never know who you're going to get, right? And then maybe you're talking to five different people and
[46:52] you're having to explain yourself because they don't know who you are. So you're explaining yourself over and over in your situation. Well, with me, I'm
[46:58] trying to keep it small and bespoke so I can only work with a handful of clients at the same time so that they always
[47:04] have access to me. So in a sense, I'm helping with everything that you know you need. Of course, you need your visa,
[47:11] for example, but that everything that you don't know you need. So everything that goes into moving from the physical side to the emotional side and so on
[47:18] because you know are you wanting to ship anything, are you bringing pets, where do you want to live? Some people want to
[47:23] move to Portugal but they've never been or they've only been to a couple of the big cities and they might actually enjoy some of the smaller cities and they
[47:29] don't know that. So that's something that we talk about and that we work through. So essentially Slate and Key. So we still have Expats Everywhere of
[47:35] course where we put out information, we put out the videos, the podcast and I'm happy to share those resources. But if you're looking for something that's a
[47:40] little more hands-on, a more catered to you, exactly what you need, a lot more access, a lot more help, one-on-one,
[47:47] then that's where our Slate Key comes in. And you can find me at sllaytonkey.com. I do webinars to
[47:52] explain a little more what I do, what's included in the service packages, and then of course why Portugal is still a
[47:57] great option for 2026. But at slatekey.com, you can get in touch with me there.
[48:03] Perfect. I mean, as always for the listeners, you know that if you don't find it easily, which it should be
[48:08] because while documenting for this episode, it's very easy to find. It's a rating. If you put Sllayton Key in in
[48:14] Google, it rates the first. So, easy to find. But if you don't find it, the links will be always in the description
[48:20] for both experts everywhere website and Slate Key and the webinars. Kaylee has been amazing having you in the show. I'm
[48:27] really really happy that you that you accepted talking to me today. Maybe you have one last tip uh that you would like
[48:34] last piece of general piece of advice that you want to share with the audience. Yeah, the last advice would be don't
[48:40] wait if you're thinking about moving. I think there's always going to be a reason to not move. There's always going to be an elderly parent, a grandchild,
[48:47] finances, but if you really want to move, there are ways that you could do it. You just need to have a good team in
[48:52] your corner to help you and assist you. So, if you're thinking about moving and it might not be the right time or the
[48:57] right choice, but if you're thinking about it, seriously explore it and don't make excuses, but explore and research
[49:03] and see if now is the right time. Mark, thank you also for having me on here. It has been a pleasure. As always, to
[49:09] all the listeners, if you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, give some love to the to the podcast, to the
[49:14] channel, to experts everywhere, also to Slate Key. And um until next time, keep
[49:19] exploring, stay curious, and see you in the next episode.