Have you ever come home after living abroad and felt off?
Like you should be happy to be back, but instead there is this quiet heaviness that you can't explain.
It's absolutely OK to feel grief because we are not allowing ourselves to feel grief.
You feel that something is wrong with you if you are not happy the whole time.
And if you're sitting at home and you're having this weird feeling of I'm missing something,
and if you look into it, that is real grief because you're grieving a lifestyle and a person.
That you had to say goodbye to.
In today's episode, we talk about the side of international life we don't name enough,
the grief of change and the emotional whiplash that comes when returning home.
Because sometimes what you're really missing is in the place,
is a version of your life that you had to leave behind.
And then there is the other shock, coming back as someone who has grown,
while the world you return to is still expecting the old version of yourself.
There are two kinds of going back, even the first time when we had our first repatriation from Alabama back to Germany.
I feel it all comes down to expectations.
When you're leaving, you're leaving a shadow behind, but then abroad you grow.
But the others around you, like your family and friends back home, they didn't see you grow.
So they are trying to put you back into that shadow.
But you are no longer that person from that shadow, but everyone else expects you to be that person.
And that can mess with you.
We get into repatriation, identity shifts and what it takes to rebuild a sense of belonging,
when you don't quite fit in the shadow people remember.
Today on Almost Local, the living abroad story of Annegret Berge. Let's start.
[Music]
Actually started mathematics in English to become a teacher.
But then life had other plans, I guess, and we moved abroad.
And during my time in China, I realized that just living abroad is not as easy as it looks like.
And so I looked into it, what can be done?
And I decided to become a coach and to support expats.
And which I've been doing ever, like since then, and I really enjoyed it.
And now we're back to Germany.
And of course, which is our topic today, repatriation.
So I know what it's like, because we've just been through it.
And yeah, I thought that's it.
So yeah, just like the fact of being from eastern Germany and from part that was closed during that days
might have been one of the reasons that motivates or push you to try to things.
Now I think human, always when you tell a human, you cannot do that.
They want to try that. It's kind of in our mindset.
You also touched on your studies like mathematics, English, being an educator.
Did you work as a teacher at any point or as a mathematician?
No, just a little bit in the beginning.
And then I got pregnant and I was at home and then my husband had the opportunity to go abroad.
And I joined him and we've been abroad for over 10 years, 11 years.
And now that we're back, I'm teaching part time. Yeah.
Hazar, it's something that you did afterwards.
Okay. Interesting.
And we will talk about the coaching part a little bit later.
I want to talk about that, but maybe just out of curiosity,
what was the first move on what motivated you to leave Germany back then?
Okay. So this time it was really for my studies.
Like I said, I studied English and I wanted to experience another culture
and where they of course spoke English.
And I ended up in England because that's where our university, like the university I studied,
had a partnership with.
And I was in Brighton in England, which was really, really lovely and a wonderful experience.
But again, it just lasted three or four months.
So it wasn't too long. Yeah. It was like not even a whole semester.
And then I went back to Germany.
So it was a quick taste of the world outside, but not really for a long time.
So it was more like a study abroad experience.
But I'm sure that that was also a way of perfectionating English back then,
because even if you study English in a country that it's not the language where you speak,
I suppose you also know that learning languages is much better
when you are in a place where they speak that language.
When does US come in? Why US also?
Okay. So like I said, when we had our, like I had our first son, we,
my husband got the job opportunity to go to the United States.
And we had a bit of a fight about that because I didn't want to go.
I remember very vividly, and I was like a new mom.
And this, the place where we were supposed to go was Alabama in the south.
And I was so scared of tornadoes.
And I'm like, they're having tornadoes over there.
And he's like, that's really rare. That's never happening.
And then I think two weeks later, my sister gave me a call and she was like,
Anne, have you checked the news?
And like, what's going on? And hold and behold, an EF5 tornado ripped through
the exact same town that we were supposed to move.
And I was like, you mean that?
So yeah, I was scared. I think in hindsight, this was also me more being a new mom.
And your whole world is upside down.
And I think at that moment, I wasn't ready for another big life transition.
But when the time then came and we moved like a year later or nine months later,
it was completely, I fell in love with Alabama real quickly.
So I was glad he pushed through that and in a way convinced me to go.
And I think my self came back more.
I was more stable in being a mom and having figured that out.
So yeah, and then we were living in Alabama for a little over three years.
How was moving with a recently born child?
I assume there is also big challenges about that because there is stuff that
it is not as in the U.S. might be not the same as it's like home.
Whatever you learn from your friends and family on how to do certain things,
then suddenly you are in a new country and they are completely different.
It is. It truly is an experience.
Although I have to say my son was one at a time, which is different.
So I feel like you have to hang of it a little bit.
You're feeling more confident and like I can do this.
This is going to be fine.
But we also had our daughter in the States.
So which is then a different experience, of course, to be pregnant in another country
that is not like your home country.
But I felt confident like we were visiting the hospitals before.
So you could look around, and of course you had friends who also had babies and you talk to them.
And I know English well, obviously.
So I felt confident there if there's ever anything I could at least describe what is hurting
or stuff like that.
So I felt sound and secure and everything went really beautifully.
Like it is all good.
But you have a point there.
It is different to have that in a foreign country.
I can imagine. How was adaptation at the first moment because you're going for your husband job,
which is something that I talk with a couple of people also here.
And you are left at home with your kids with no connections in the new place where you go.
You need to redo your social circle.
You need to, I don't know, discover new hobbies, discover new ways of doing something
that in Germany maybe was like, okay, I go to work in here.
Or there now it's everything done by car.
Or like, how was the adaptation on the first month?
Honestly, really super easy.
First of all, I think it helped because like I told you, my sister, she is married to an American.
So I knew the States already through family.
And I think I had a rather realistic point of view and some discussions, of course,
before with her and what she experienced living in the States.
So my culture shock was like this.
It was rather on the other side.
I mean, everything is bigger and I don't know, you have more space and the sun is beautiful.
And especially as you have a little one, like America is really good
with being nice to little ones.
Like you can go to restaurants and it's no problem if a child is crying.
Like, I feel like it's much more in Germany, like, oh, don't bring them and don't disturb the others.
In America, they are very welcoming.
You get compliments all over the place.
You have playgrounds and parks.
So for that, it was really, really easy to fit in.
And I guess if you are happy with your life, you also, I don't know, attract other people.
But it was really easy to find new friends, to find a community with Americans and of course,
also Germans.
And we lived in the same neighborhood and it was just really, really great time.
Is there something that you miss now that you are back home from there?
I miss a lot.
It really became my second home.
I always say like, I start with the sunshine.
I don't know, I can't handle the German weather, it kills me.
And I feel like that it's not about not just the sunshine, but I feel like people are in a way lighter.
Yeah, you move differently, you're more joyful.
Everyone is happy.
Instead, if you're like bundled up and everyone is freezing and with an umbrella and stuff like that.
And I miss the kindness of the people, the openness.
It's very easy to just chat with everyone who is walking around and it's just, "Hey, how's it going?"
or "How are you today?"
Like these quick chitchats.
I know not everyone likes them.
I do like them.
And I also miss, of course, the opportunity to travel in the States.
Like America is a beautiful country, especially the national parks.
I don't know if you've ever been to one.
Yeah, they're truly amazing and so diverse.
And I just love a good road trip.
Yeah, I mean, you can have road trips here, but America is really the place for a good road trip.
So that was good.
Nice. Identity wise, did you change during that years?
Like did you adapt until the point that you changed a little bit how you behave?
And you also became chitchatty, like what you were describing?
I always feel when I think about this, I feel it's not so much that I changed,
but it's more that there was a part living in me that was finally allowed to shine, to come out.
Like I was always like that.
I've always loved to talk to people, but here nobody talks back to you.
And I remember when we moved back, for example, in America, it's very common.
You greet everyone in your neighborhood, everyone.
Like if the car's coming by, you go, "Hey, how's it going?"
Really quick.
I tried that then in Germany, you know, everyone in our neighborhood.
And I was like, "Hey, hi, how's it going?"
And they all looked at me like, "What's she doing? Do I know her?"
And I was like, "Oh, you have to circle back. You're in Germany now.
You can't do this any longer."
So again, I feel in this case, it was more that a true part of me came through
and I could live that and I really enjoyed that.
And then of course, again, with repatriation and coming back home,
you realize I can no longer be that.
And that's rather painful, right?
Because I feel it's a nice surprise if you move to a new country
because you expected that it will be different, right?
And then you're surprised if you fit in and you're like,
"Hey, that actually, that works for me. That works for my personality."
But then when you move back and you realize, that's weird.
I'm home, but it doesn't feel like home.
It feels off.
Like that's the worst culture shock, which is way worse than the culture shock.
We will talk more definitely about the whole reverse culture shock
because it's something that interests me also a lot.
In the sense, I know that the world continues, not like your life changed,
but the people who remained at home also changed, the environment also changed,
and therefore you're not going to the same place that you left
10 years ago in your case, which is a long time.
In between, you said three years in the US, then comes China, which is like...
You went from the capitalism to then.
How did that change come to your life?
Yeah, so there was a year of Germany in between.
So we moved back to Germany and I think we both felt,
"This is weird. This feels weird. Something's off."
And at that point in my life, I had no idea of the whole concept of reverse culture shock.
I wasn't looking into living abroad and what that entails.
So it was more of a feeling and also more of the wish to explore that experience again.
And I, of course, wanted to go back to Alabama,
but the company of my husband had other plans.
Well, why don't you go to the other side of the world?
And I have to say, because I had, like I told you,
I didn't want to move to Alabama the first time.
So I was at that point really, really open.
I was like, "No, let's just try it. Let's go there and see what happens."
So we moved to China after a year of living in Germany.
And then we stayed in China for five years.
And that was a completely different experience,
because first of all, it starts with me not speaking the language.
So you're having a different starting point.
Suddenly, you're not understanding anything that's going on around you.
So that, of course, kicks in a lot.
But yeah, that was a different world.
No, no, it makes sense.
I assume it's not only... it's much unknown also, no?
The fact that you don't speak a language is critical.
I've lived that when I moved to Germany the first time.
I had zero words of German back then.
I mean, luckily, I lived in Frankfurt, which is kind of an international city,
let's say that you can survive that.
But I did that again, and I moved to Greece without speaking a single word.
From America, it arrives a lot, more or less,
like even if it's a cinematographic view of what life might be there.
But there is some kind of connection.
From China, we don't have that much of a shared culture.
Is it that different compared to our culture?
What shocked you when you arrived there,
that you were not expecting that you could adapt to?
Well, the first thing, literally the first thing that shocked me is how big it is.
I mean, you know that like we were living in Beijing, you know that Beijing is huge.
But then again, you have no idea what huge means in that concept.
And it started with the guy picking us up from the airport
and driving us to our compound.
And he had to type it into his map.
And I was like, he's from here.
He should know where this is.
But then you are driving and you're driving and you keep driving and Beijing doesn't stop.
And it just keeps on going.
And then you are realizing, this is really another level.
I mean, 27 million people live alone in Beijing,
depending how far the outskirts you're counting.
That's all of Australia.
Yeah.
You have to put that into perspective.
And that is something that you can't prepare for.
And of course, you have these masses of people everywhere, like grocery shopping, going anywhere.
There are people around you.
You are never alone.
And so I always think about them, probably when they move over here, they must feel so alone.
They're like, well, where's everyone?
Yeah, that was the first job.
The second one is, of course, and again, also I knew about it,
but it's different when you experience it.
The bad air does smock the air pollution,
which is when we were living there, it was still really bad.
It's getting better and better over the years.
If you look at the data, it's really going down.
But the first year, it was brutal.
And then you realize you can't escape air.
It just follows you and it impacts you.
Your whole health, it's like you're running against a wall in a way.
And that just, I mean, literally, there was a time when I moved back or whenever I was
visiting Germany or my sister, I was just smelling places, you know, I was like, oh, smell.
Because you take these things for granted.
And then suddenly you don't.
And I was like, after that, it was such to have fresh air.
That was a blessing.
But to not have that is, that was hard.
And again, you know about that, but to live it, to really experience it on your lungs,
on your body.
And I love to be outside.
I love to run.
You can't do that.
I mean, if you're doing it, it's not healthy.
So you have to adjust your life.
It's not about how is the weather today.
It's like, how is the air today?
And then you adjust what you're going to do.
Interesting.
I mean, I had a friend who lived in Seoul, in Korea, and he's German.
And he tried to open the window for the very German tradition of Luft.
Giving fresh air into the house and their flatmates were like, are you crazy?
What are you doing?
Like, you know how difficult it is to maintain fresh air inside from the outside.
Yeah, I suppose it's something that you need to really experience it.
If not, you don't understand what it means to be in a contaminated air environment and
being limited in what you do in there.
From an emotional perspective, like you said at the beginning, you were afraid of tornadoes
in Alabama, whatever, but you kind of adapt quickly, also like met people quickly because
people were open in that sense.
Also, you spoke the language.
How did you connect with the people in China?
Did it pay an emotional toll to yourself to be there again alone with the kids?
Of course, I suppose it wasn't as easy as the American move.
When it comes to meeting people, I wouldn't even say that because you live there in a
compound, and in this compound, only mostly international people are living there.
So, from Brazil and Australia and Africa and literally all over the world, which was the
fun part, actually.
And since everyone is in the same boat, you meet each other at the pool, a little grocery
store, at the playground.
And again, everyone is in the same boat.
Everyone is lonely.
So, if you're just a little open, it's really easy to connect with other people and just
say, "Hi, where are you from?
The typical questions.
How old are you?
Tits.
To which school are they going?"
That part was easy.
However, what is harder emotionally, because you have to imagine you're moving to a country
where you're not understanding the people again, this is a tough part.
I feel like, I don't know, maybe even more if you're a mom because you need to make sure
what if something happens and you always have that feeling behind you.
How can I tell them if something is wrong?
So that is living with you.
And of course, you're living in a complete different culture, not knowing what they're
doing.
So you're a little bit more near mercy that they treat you right.
And that, I guess, plays into it a little bit.
Like you have that as a constant baseline of, "I don't know what they're doing.
Am I safe here?
You know, can I trust them?"
These thoughts.
So, I feel like that is maybe the harder part emotionally than to meet friends because
I felt that was really easy to connect and reach out because again, we were all in the
same boat.
And that was-
I also think, I don't know where I read it, but I think you described a little bit like
this idea of the companies handling the move of families or employees to another place
as kind of a technical one rather than a human one.
What did you notice that they miss in the sense of like you, I assume that they are
moving a person that it's the one that they are interested in having and they are leaving
like the whole family partners outside of it.
It's something that you felt personally that it happened in the sense of like you were
expecting a little bit more support from the companies that are relocating people?
I have to say, I felt in good hands at that time.
Yeah.
I felt they were taking good care of me, the family, my husband.
I mean, of course, it would have been wonderful to have someone, let's say, after three months,
just to check in with you.
How are you doing?
Doesn't have to be long.
But to have that feeling of if anything comes up, there is someone to talk to.
But then at the same time, I think I also never had the expectation
that the company is responsible for me or for everything, that there are some things
on my end that I need to deal with.
However, and I still think what I would have wished, and I think also that was my whole idea
when I started coaching, I always thought because they offer us language lessons,
which is amazing, because that helps you to connect with the culture.
And I always thought if they would just split that budget and use it for coaching sessions
as well, because there comes a time where you will struggle.
And I had that too, especially in Beijing, where you feel lost, where you don't know
what's going on and you are not expecting that.
And if you have someone from the beginning who is just asking you some questions, how
do you want to spend your time here?
Why are you here?
What's going on?
That can be so, so helpful.
And I don't know if you know, but about 60% of the assignments that fail, fail because
of the family, because they are not integrated.
And I think that could really help with that because you are not aware of what's happening
to you.
Like, for example, my personal case is after, I think it was after two years, two and a half
years in China, I got pneumonia, that was pre-COVID and I went to the doctor and she looked at
me and she was like, well, you're rather young, what's going on?
And she's like, are you doing sports?
I'm like, yeah, I'm a runner.
And then, do you wear your mask during the bad air?
I'm like, yes, always.
And then her last question was, are you happy?
And I was like, no.
Because my husband had a job, was very fulfilled, the kids were at a beautiful school, but here
I was from 8 to 4 alone with bad air.
Nothing to do.
And it sounds bad because you have someone, it's called an IE, which is like a housemate,
which is even taking care of your household.
So you have nothing to do.
You can get a mani-pedi and that's your day.
But there's a whole lot of time and that feeling of nobody needs me and I don't contribute,
it's not really fulfilling, I guess.
Yeah, it sounds perfect.
So that's why I'm saying, I think back then I wished so much.
I had a coach back then who would have said, hey, what do you want to do here?
And yeah, you see it play out in different cases.
You know, some started drinking a lot, yeah, and as their coping mechanism.
And I feel that could be prevented.
And if companies would look into that and be open to that really human side of, hey,
they lost a lot.
Some of them lost the job that they loved.
They lost their family.
They don't speak the language.
They don't understand the culture.
But here they are, 24/7.
What can we do?
Yeah.
So there is definitely room for improvement.
No, no, I mean, definitely.
I think it's something that is relatively common with the partners of those who have
been repatriated due to work and the families in general.
You know, like, okay, you're left and what you're saying, suddenly you're still there.
Like you live there and in countries where you cannot speak the language, I suppose it
amplifies the whole thing because you are not able to, and even worse, if you have the air
quality that doesn't allow you to go out.
What do you do?
You stay all the time at home and I don't know.
Was that the moment, the clear cut there on saying, I need to do something.
I need to build something on my own.
Was this the moment where you decided, okay, until here after I got this question, because
I really like I checked and I like, are you happy question from a doctor after pneumonia,
which is not really something that we would expect in Europe, probably from a doctor.
Yeah.
Was that the turning point for saying until here, I need to start doing something with my life,
but also to feel, I don't know, fulfilling something.
Absolutely.
I think it's the classic story of you've been in the valley and then you need to figure out
a way out of it.
And I was just thinking, yeah, I wish I had a coach and I looked into coaching and I just,
I don't know.
I loved it.
The moment I read more about it because it's not like therapy or someone is more like specialized
and in a way even tells you what to do.
Like coaching is just simply asking questions.
And I feel in the expert world, there are so many questions that come up that no one
else can answer for you.
Like, for example, should we stay longer or should we go home?
There is no book that you could read that gives you the answer for your specific situation,
but these questions come up.
And if you have someone in your life who is just honestly there, kind of neutral,
because the coach doesn't like family, usually they are like tending, oh, you should come home
and then maybe work life.
So you should stay longer.
They all have an idea what you should be doing.
A coach doesn't have that.
Like in a sense, he couldn't care less, but he does care and he does care about you.
So I felt like it just clicked.
I was like, that is the perfect thing that expats need.
Someone by their side who asks them these tough questions.
Yeah.
Are you happy?
It starts with, are you happy and what do you want?
And it changed everything for me.
Like I did my schooling done with Ericsson International to become a coach.
I met other coaches and suddenly I had the best time ever.
Like I was happy even during COVID, because then COVID hit and we were living in China
at the time.
Which was interesting.
But I had that part in my life and it just changed everything.
And in hindsight, I feel like sometimes we do blame things on the country when it really
has nothing to do with the country.
It was me needing to figure out something, what I wanted to do here.
And again, the country, I mean, you can blame it so easily.
Yeah, I wasn't happy there, but why, what was going on?
And if you find your purpose, it changes everything.
And it starts to become fun and exciting and yeah, something really magical.
Interesting.
I think I need to ask out of curiosity before it burns myself and we come back to the,
to the, how was COVID in China?
You need to know different than I think many expected.
I remember, like this is something I learned about Chinese.
I think the Chinese in general, they are very humble.
They're very humble people and that's how they treated the coronavirus.
Like the first few talks that I heard was kind of like, this is serious.
This is what we know, this is what we don't know.
We're working on it, but we need to stay humble.
And that brought a calmness to it.
Like an earnest, it was earnest, but also calm.
There was no panic in that sense.
And then of course, everyone was wearing their masks.
Like this was like a no brainer in China.
Of course you wear the mask for me, I wear it for you.
And with 27 million people, you need to do something.
And I always compared it with an umbrella.
If it rains, you use an umbrella.
Sometimes it helps more depending on how much rain it comes, but we just wore it.
Yeah, just to get that little teeny tiny chance, whatever it was, how much it would be helpful.
So in that sense, I felt safe even.
And I remember they offered us the opportunity like us, moms and the children to leave the country.
But I always said, like, I don't know, remember Titanic, if you jump, I jump, check.
So I was like, I'm staying with you, we're in this together.
I stayed and I think it was the best decision because then it ended up being harder.
Like they all wanted to come back in because China was so strict with what they were doing.
And they brought it down to zero.
And if you've seen what they've done, it had to be zero.
There was no other way in the beginning with how strict they were.
And everyone was playing in that part.
That changed, of course, later on a little bit.
But especially in the beginning, it was scary, of course.
But at the same time, I felt safe and I felt they had it under control.
But again, it was more this humility in the end that impressed me of really being humbled
and seeing, okay, this is what we know, this is what we don't know.
Let's work with that.
I mean, sounds like structured mindsets of society, in the sense of it's also cultural
how you tackle things.
As Mediterranean, we just panic and run with chickens without heads.
We go back to the moment that you decided to do the coaching, you do the whole courses,
you become a coach, official coach.
This is still in China.
You start working.
When does coaching become?
How is it formalized?
What's the process from that moment when a doctor telling you, are you happy?
Okay, change of mind, I need to do something.
Researching, taking the course and then really transitioning into being your job.
Being your profession and your life.
Yeah.
I feel it was a slow but steady transition.
Yeah.
So when you look into it in the beginning, I feel like we coaches pop up like mushrooms
everywhere.
Yeah.
I feel like it was very trendy, very hip these days.
And I felt like, no, I want to have some science in a way behind it.
There needs to be some basics.
And if you are there, you'll really quickly come to the ICS, which is the International
Coach Federation.
So you can pick schools that work towards a degree with them, which is what I did.
And while you're doing that, they already encourage you to start coaching, which in
the beginning, of course, is for free and you coach a friend or they give you a cup
of coffee and stuff like that.
But they always say like to try it out.
Of course, you need to practice.
Yeah.
Or practice with each other.
And so I started that.
And then I also, yeah, I mean, I created my homepage and with the idea of coaching
because and then you slowly build onto that.
And I think I just built step after step.
You know, you're trying to approach people.
And by that time, then we already moved to again, back to the States.
So right after China, we were going back to Alabama, same place that we used to live
before.
And yeah, I could continue with my coaching there.
And like here, like you are invited to a podcast.
You will participate in an exhibit fair here and there.
You'll get some speaking engagements.
You try to work on your social engagements.
Yeah.
With LinkedIn and Instagram and stuff like that, which was completely new to me.
I remember when I started LinkedIn, I knew no one, nobody.
Like my friends were at the playground.
You know, they were other moms.
I didn't know a lot of people from the industry.
But again, for me, that was fun.
And to reach out.
And to meet new people.
And I guess it helps that I'm open.
So I have no problem approaching someone else.
And I've met really, really wonderful people, especially on LinkedIn.
I cannot say it enough.
Made some great friends.
And yeah, it's been a wonderful ride since then.
You said that you went back to the US.
So you did Germany, US, Germany, China, US, Germany.
It's a lot.
It's a lot of traveling.
I assumed like returning to Alabama at that point of time.
It's something that was okay.
I'm interested on this because that's kind of, it's not a repatriation in this or like
in the sense of like I'm going back home.
Home?
But it's going back to a place where you live.
And I'm interested because I considering going back to Greece at some point in my life probably.
It's a place that I called home at some point.
What was the deal?
Now that you live both like going back to Germany, which is where you are from originally versus
a place that you called home, like in Alabama, in the US.
Is it very different or?
Well, going back to Alabama was different in a sense that you feel this country also
had, has had a few changes.
Yeah.
I would say politics play into that.
And I feel if you're coming from an outsider, you can sense it in a different way because
you did belong, but then you didn't belong also.
Yeah.
So you would still have an outsider's perspective.
What of course completely threw us was their handling of COVID because here we were coming
from a country that took it really seriously.
Where everyone took it seriously.
I mean, we had tests or the kids had tests every day just to make sure that everything
is fine.
And then we were coming to Alabama and the first thing was like, oh, we don't have it here.
It's over.
And I'm like, is it?
So that felt weird because it was such a different way to deal with COVID and also such a divided
way to deal with COVID because in China, I felt like everyone was on the same page.
There was no drama, at least in the beginning.
I know that shifted when we left.
So it also shifted in China, but until we were like the whole time we were there.
But then in Alabama, you had to find out like these two departments and they handled it
like this, and they handle it like this.
And then you were in the middle and you felt a little lost kind of like, what are we doing
now?
And then there was COVID at school and nobody did anything.
And we were like, well, that felt confusing in that regard.
So it took us some time to get used to this.
So this is how they're dealing with COVID.
And then of course, we all got COVID.
How could it be?
So this was a shift.
But it was still, I would say, different than now coming back to Germany.
I think that still hits harder because it was still...
we were so excited about to move back there.
And it felt like home and we found again, great friends.
I even reconnected with a friend and we've been there the first time together.
And she also had her second expatriation during the same time.
So that was nice to meet her and her family again.
Our neighborhood was amazing.
We found some great friends there that we are still connected again.
So that was all wonderful to be back.
And it felt like going home, but not completely.
So there is the sense of, it changed too.
Yeah, the country changed too.
And you have to deal with that.
Now you touched to that point, like the question of the episode, probably.
The listeners, and you touched about it a couple of times already.
People think that going back to wherever you were born, you grow up, it's the easy part.
Clearly you state that it's not.
I know a lot of people who said it is actually probably worse than the others' moves in a lot of cases.
How was it for you personally?
Horrible.
I'm not joking.
I wish I was joking.
I feel, I mean, there are two kinds of going back.
Even the first time when we had our first repatriation from Alabama back to Germany.
I feel it all comes down to expectations.
When you go abroad, you expect to feel different.
That's your expectation.
You know, when I went to China, I felt like this is going to be different.
I have to adjust.
And it is. Yeah.
So if something comes up, you're like, "Yeah, that's normal."
And like I said, you're rather surprised if you fit in somewhere.
But when you come home, you expect to feel at home and you no longer feel like that.
And I always compare it with when you're leaving, you're leaving a shadow behind,
but then abroad you grow.
But the others around you, like your family and friends back home, they didn't see you grow.
So they are trying to put you back into that shadow.
But you are no longer that person from that shadow.
But everyone else expects you to be that person.
And that can mess with you because you are no longer that.
And then you, that's another big problem.
You feel bad if you say you miss Alabama, for example,
because then they can get like they're they might have feelings of,
"Well, don't you like it here? And this is your home country.
How could you miss them and not us?"
But this is these parts of that two things can be true at the same time.
Of course, you can be happy to be back, but you can still miss your home there.
But you can't share that with anyone.
You can't say, "I've really missed my life in Alabama because I love the sunshine,
I love the community, I love the people, I loved, I don't know,
try being on the interstate," whatever it was.
And you've left a person behind that you could be there.
I could no longer be that friendly, "How's it going?"
And that part was gone.
I had to go back to Wooden Dog.
It was just like, "That's not me."
And you know to play the part, but that messes with your mind.
And you're like, "What's going on?"
And also all of the sudden you see your own country from the outside.
I feel when you leave, you have this feeling of, "Oh, we know best.
This is the best way to live your life."
And I always have this example, as you know, in Germany,
we're allowed to go as fast on the Autobahn as we want to, on certain sections.
In Alabama or America, it's 70 miles per hour.
I think sometimes it's 80, but that's it.
In the beginning, that made me mad.
You know, I was like, "Let's move."
But then after three years, you slow down, you chill,
you have a drink, you're listening to music.
It's very relaxing.
Then I came back to Germany and they made me crazy.
"What are you doing? Why is everyone so stressed?"
You know, these are these little things that show up in life.
And you're like, "Does it have to be like that?
Isn't it better to just slow down?"
And everyone else will think, "Are you crazy?
How great is it that we can go as fast as we want?"
And I'm not thinking, "Really, is it?"
You know, and there's so many things that just change,
where you change, where you no longer fit in.
We don't have to talk about politics, which is of course another part.
You know, you see politics now from the outside.
Everywhere.
And that changes a lot.
And that's hard.
It's hard to no longer feel at home.
Was it only...
Because this is from the perspective of you changing, growing yourself,
and then you come back and the expectations of the others are like,
"Okay, this is the same Anne-Gret that left 10 years ago,
now just like 10 years older,
in my case with much less hair than what I used to have 10 years ago."
Was it noticeable also for you that the country changed also
like from the perspective of you expecting things that used to be,
in my case for example, being from Barcelona,
Barcelona it's not the city that it used to be 10 years ago.
And it's something that I had this discussion with friends
in the sense of like, I used to love the city when I lived there.
I don't know if it's the type of city that I would like to live in right now.
It's not only me changing,
it's also the environment where I grew up that has changed with it.
Have you perceived that?
Also in Germany?
Maybe a little bit, but I would still say it's more that I have changed.
And not so much the country.
Yeah.
And maybe it's also not so much, I don't know, really is it,
I mean, you can debate that for a long time.
Is it truly that we change or that we just come out?
You know, that really that parts who were in us come out.
I mean, of course you see the world differently and that will change,
but who you are, I really think it just goes more back to
can you be that person of you in that environment.
And sometimes it fits or it doesn't.
Like I haven't been to Brazil, but I've met people from Brazil.
And to me, you know, they're just dancing and fun and joyful.
If you are like that, then probably that is your country.
If you are more reserved and strict, you're probably happy in Germany.
Yeah.
With all our rules and regulations and if you love that.
But we're different and then you realize
maybe my environment was more over here that actually fits better to me.
And then, like I said, you realize you can no longer be that person.
I mean, you can try to be that person and I encourage people to still be that person, of course.
But there will be things that you miss.
Yeah.
I know what you mean with that a city can change or a country can change.
I also do have to politics, of course.
Yeah.
One last question for this section before we jump to the next one.
If somebody is in the moment of going back home, repatriating, what would you tell them?
Or what do you stop telling themselves, a thing that you would recommend?
The one line advice, let's say like this.
The first thing is, I would say is, that it's absolutely okay to feel grief
because we are not allowing ourselves to feel grief.
You feel that something is wrong with you if you are not happy the whole time.
And if you're sitting at home and you're having this weird feeling of I'm missing something.
And if you look into it, that is real grief because you're grieving a lifestyle
and a person that you had to say goodbye to.
And in most cases you have to go back.
I mean, some of us would love to stay longer, but then you have to come back.
So it's not even voluntarily.
Yeah.
In a way you're forced to go back.
And to have that, know that this is normal.
For most of my clients that's the first thing that helps them.
And they're asking me like, this is normal.
And I'm like, of course it is.
I mean, think about it.
Imagine you would have spent five years wherever you are
and then move back and you feel nothing.
That would mean, it didn't mean anything to you or even worse,
you were so happy to finally leave this place, finally it's over.
But it just shows that you really appreciated this part of your life.
So it's a good thing in a way.
Yeah.
It's like grieving a person.
If a person is going, it just shows how much you cared for that person,
how much you love that person.
And the problem with this kind of grief, there's even a name for it,
it's called disenfranchised grief because it's not publicly acknowledged.
You cannot go to your neighbor.
I couldn't go and say, hey, I'm Ms. Alabama.
They would have looked at me like crazy.
What's her problem?
Nobody's coming to you and telling you, I'm sorry.
So you to suck it up and act happy and everything is fine.
But inside you're feeling this grief.
So I feel like I would start there.
It's completely normal to feel that grief.
And there are even some cool tips around that.
For example, works for children, works for adults
because you need to get out of that grief.
It doesn't help you to sit the whole time and just grief and grief and grief.
Maybe if you're a runner, buy yourself some special shoes.
And when you wear those shoes, you're allowed to grieve.
Or if you are a painter, you know, buy some new paints and put it on the painting.
Or if you're into musician, write a song.
Like find a place in your life where you can let that grief out in a very creative way,
but then put it away.
And then kind of like, and now it's my life now.
Because that allows you to feel the pain, but at the same time to move forward.
And we need both to have a happy life.
Cool.
Very interesting.
Very nice.
Tips.
Listeners get tips even.
Free coaching.
Yeah. I was just thinking that the moment that you go to your neighbor in Germany and say,
"Miss Alabama."
I don't know how many times they made you the joke of sweet home Alabama, I suppose.
But it's an easy one.
Cool. Thanks a lot for the talk and the conversation about this.
I prepared a mini game, very fast one that I call design a home.
And basically the idea is that I give you a scenario
and then you tell me how would you design your life around it in the three places that you lived.
So in US, in Beijing, China, and in Germany.
And if you would do it differently between these three or not.
The first scenario that I have is you had a draining day and you feel disconnected.
What would be your move to reconnect in each of these countries?
Well, I always go for a run.
So works in the US, works in Germany, doesn't always work in China.
So I ended up having an indoor treadmill.
Yeah. So I could run inside.
But yeah, probably would do that.
Cool.
Sports always worked in that sense for me also.
You're starting from zero socially.
What's the first social doorway that you walk through in each of the countries?
Interestingly enough, it's also the same for all of them.
Start, be happy with who you are and with your own life.
Because then I feel people will just come into your life.
It's like, I don't know, again, be happy, be happy alone.
And then be open, of course, and see who is coming, of course, also approach people.
But if this is coming from a place of where you're happy with your own life,
I think it just shines through and it attracts hopefully the right people.
I don't know, but yeah, that's what I would do.
Cool. I mean, the next one, it's kind of related to this, but you feel a bit of identity wobble.
Let's say like this, the "who am I here?" situation in each of the places.
How do you come back to yourself?
Has it been different in each of these countries?
Have you used any specific thing from these countries to come back on answering this question of who I am?
Who I am? I feel maybe it's more about learning things about us.
Like realizing this is also who I am. Yeah.
So for example, I feel Alabama has taught me kindness.
Yeah, everyone is really...
Not that I haven't been kind before, but to see everyone really with kindness, with a big heart.
Beijing taught me to sometimes stay humble when I mentioned that earlier, you know, just to say,
"I don't know everything and that's fine and I'll stay open and curious and adapt in a way."
Germany, I think, has taught me to stay loyal and to not give up so easily.
Sometimes you have to fight, so I guess maybe it's more that different countries
bring out different things.
And of course, if you want to go back to who you truly are,
you really need to sit still with yourself.
And what I figured out, and I guess XPetlay really helps with that,
to not always have to know the answer, you know, to be fine with not knowing
and giving yourself that space of, "Let's see what comes out.
Let's see what's important for me." And to have that patience with yourself.
Living in the insurgency.
I have two more.
The first one that I have, it's kind of the reverse culture approach, you know?
When you feel weird in a new place while being abroad, how do you reconnect with home?
Which small rituals did you use in each of these?
I mean, in Germany, not in this case for the US or China.
What small things allowed you to be connected with Germany while being there?
Almost, I don't know if I even crave that so much.
Okay.
I mean, of course, the typical thing I have to share is bread.
Yeah, I feel like we are so cute.
To eating bread, so I literally, I think we all did, I started to bake my own bread.
I think that is a habit that just connects you with home and you crave it and it's nice.
And yeah, you just learn it.
There comes this point I feel, especially for Germans, sooner or later you give them,
you're like, "I can't deal with this bread."
No matter where you move, it's just we're so focused on our bread.
So start baking, I guess.
It's a common one also, like food-wise, it's a way of like cooking your recipes from home.
But you cannot always do that.
I mean, I had that in Germany.
I'm sorry for whatever, but the tomatoes that you buy in Germany are plastic compared to what we get in the Mediterranean.
It was difficult to cook things in the way that I would do it back home.
Quality-wise, I would find the ingredients, but not the quality of them.
The last one, it's the opposite of the one that I just asked.
If you could export one cultural strength, one cultural thing that you would like to import to Germany from the US and from China, what would it be?
Well, from the US, it's easy.
Their positive thinking, their mentality of "let's do it, go out and be optimistic" and just generally encouraging each other.
You know, I feel like it was so nice they focused on the good parts.
Yeah, like I remembered here in Germany, like with a new baby, I mean you don't sleep and you probably don't look your best and everyone is like, "you look so tired, what's wrong?"
And you think so.
Same situation in the States, I still look tired, but everyone, "your baby girl is so cute!"
You know, they give you compliments.
I feel like that way of seeing the world because both things were true, but what you focus on, so I take that from the States.
For China, I always come back to the humility part for some reason.
Stay humble, because that really impressed me when I talked to them that it was never about "you have to do it, you need to figure out your own way, this is how we do it."
And it goes back to them saving face.
You know, saving face is very important to them, not to insult someone else and give them the chance that they can save face too.
And I think that is also something nice.
And it goes back to we Germans, as you might know, are very direct and can tell you, "you're not doing this okay."
Which has its positive things, don't get me wrong, but maybe something more in between where they could meet.
Cool. Before we close the episode, of course, I want to give you a little bit of space to explain what you were doing with coaching before.
I before, no, because if you have any other projects happening in parallel, how does the whole coaching work?
Where can listeners find you? And yeah, basically, how can you get people if they are in this moment of like, "oh, I'm a bit overwhelmed or I came home and I go back to my home country and I don't know how to deal with this."
How can they get in touch and what kind of support do you offer?
Yeah, of course. I love to do that. Yeah. My homepage is called coaching-because.com.
The reason behind that was always coaching because the best project you'll ever work on is you.
And I believe that. I think if it starts with us, and then this will just fall down into all the different areas in our lives.
And people can find me there or under my name, Annegret Birch on LinkedIn and also on Instagram.
And it's really easy to book an appointment.
And the first thing is, like, I want to have them have them a call with me for, like, 20, 30 minutes, right or not.
Paying anything where they can just reach out, ask their questions. In general, I say, a client typically brings a topic.
And then through questions, we develop some action steps together, which I always loved about coaching.
And especially the one that I did, it was called solution-focused coaching.
And it was like, we can talk about a problem all day long.
But if you give me some steps that will move you forward, that is where the change is going to happen.
So the goal is always, let's say you start out with I'm feeling alone here.
OK, then the end goal is, OK, what can you do against that?
You know, like, what are some actual steps? And clients always leave with one, sometimes more action steps.
That and here's the magic that they came up with, because it's something else.
And most of us know deep down what we need to do. Then if someone else is telling you, I can give you an example there.
Like, so often you hear, oh, your perfect morning routine is like get up at 530 and do, I don't know, a run and eat a green smoothie and blah, blah, blah.
What if you are not a morning person? That won't work for you. So maybe you need to sleep in.
So the question then becomes, what is your perfect morning routine?
And there's so many different areas, and clients can come with their own topic.
Like, usually the client brings the topic, we'll work it through, and the client leaves with some action steps.
And it's wonderful, like in the same sense that I then took my action steps to go out and study my, start my coaching practice.
They go out and it's really different areas that they're tackling. And it's wonderful to see that.
And then, of course, as you know, similar to you, I now have a podcast called "Expert Insights," which is super fun.
And I talk to people just like you, and hopefully you'll be on there as well, about everything about the expert life from culture shock.
My recent one was about if you are having a child with ADHD abroad, yeah, like these impacts that can happen.
Or how language plays in, or I talked to someone who's written a book about leading abroad.
Yeah, so all the different areas that expats face, and we can learn from each other.
And just as your podcast sharing stories is powerful. Yeah.
Beautiful. As always, for the listeners, if you're not finding the links will be in the description of the episode.
Annegret, thank you, thank you so much for being here today. Even with the technical complications that we had, we managed.
So thanks, thanks a lot. It has been a great episode.
Yeah, the listeners, they have no idea what kind of went on. Yeah, getting contact and ask what happened. All good, we managed.
As always for the listeners, if you like this episode, don't forget to give some love to both the channel of Almost Local.
Go check out Annegret's podcasts and websites and social media accounts also.
It was a pleasure interviewing you and having you in the show. Until the next time, keep exploring, stay curious and see you in the next episode of Almost Local.
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